Israel Peace Plans Whining Arabs


Now we see the results of the Obama administration’s incredibe naiveness towards solving the Arabs’ conflict with the Jews. With Washington’s foolish ploy in trying to force preconditions on Israel concerning its settlements, the Obama aministration set itself up to look like the fool. Not only is Israel correct in its understanding over the legality of the settlements, and what it’s agreed to in verbal and signed agreements, but Obama’s insistence on demanding something that can’t be delivered, unwittingly or not, unleashed the Arabs’ appetite for yet more demands.
It’s all a mugs game anyways, because there is no such thing as a “peace process”, there is either a true desire for peace by both sides (on the Israeli side there is) or there is no realistic prospect for peace. It’s really that simple. But yet the West believes in the mythical unicorn of the peace process so doggedly, that it throws all common sense out the window when viewing the region, and much of the fault for that, the Tundra Tabloids places at the feet of the advisors and “think tanks” like the Finnish UPI, which is full of simpletons who profess  a knowledge of the reagion, but in reality, don’t know their arse from a hole in the ground. KGS
JERUSALEM (al-Reuters) – Pointing an accusing finger at the United States, the Palestinians on Sunday said Washington’s backing for Israeli refusal to halt Jewish settlement expansion had killed any hope of reviving peace negotiations soon.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, buoyed by new-found support from the Obama administration, urged the Palestinians to “get a grip” and drop their settlement freeze precondition for restarting talks suspended since December.
On a one-day Middle East visit on Saturday, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton endorsed Israel’s view that settlement expansion in the occupied West Bank should not be a bar to resuming negotiations — contradicting the Palestinian position.
Netanyahu has proposed limiting building for now to some 3,000 settler homes already approved by Israel in the West Bank. He does not regard building in occupied East Jerusalem, annexed in defiance of international opposition, as settlement.
U.S. President Barack Obama himself, after persuading Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in September to meet Netanyahu in New York, called only for “restraint” in settlement, not the “freeze” he had previously proposed.
Stung by Obama’s about-face and Clinton’s remarks, the Palestinians voiced their frustration.
“The negotiations are in a state of paralysis, and the result of Israel’s intransigence and America’s back-pedaling is that there is no hope of negotiations on the horizon,” Abbas spokesman Nabil Abu Rdainah said

17 Responses

  1. If a neighbor decides to build his home on my land, if I say “I won’t talk with you until you stop” my neighbor will say, “great, I didn’t want to talk to you anyway” and will keep building. If I say, “stop building or else there will be consequences” he will say, “I’ll kill you if you try anything”. If I say, “I will talk with you about why this is not right”, I rob him of the excuse to kill me and to keep on building without the need to listen to me.

    Neither the Israeli's nor the Palestinians will make any progress until this Administration does more to change the dynamic in the region. No good fruit grows in poor soil. No good fruit or peace will come as long as the ground you are trying to plant in remains rocky and hard.

  2. Like you said: The lunatics are running the asylum.

    But wait . . there's more.

    See the lunatics at Copehagen working toward signing off on an insane commitment by "first world countries" to compensate the less fortunate (so to speak), all based on the bogus ideology of global warming due to carbon dioxide release into the atmosphere.

    The whole thing is a fraud based on fantasy science – lapped up by the socialist governments of the West and their bureaucrat lackeys.

  3. PJW,.you are logic rests on the false premise that Israel has no right to build a home in Judea and Samaria.

    Readthe Balfour Declaration which authorized close settlement of the land in question, which approved by the League of Nations and adopted by default by the UN.

    Then get back to me.

  4. Israel was officially established in 1947 not by the 1917 Balfour Declaration. The land provided Israel in 1947 is considerely less than it occupies today. The only people who think the West Bank BELONGS to Israel are some Israeli's. I don't believe the rest of the world shares that view. The US still recognizes Tel Aviv as its capital, not occupied Jerusalem.

  5. Who gives a #&$@%+* what the USA recognises or doesn't recognise.

    Its an absolue outrage for anyone to suggest – let alone refer to -"occupied Jerusalem".

    As for 'the rest of the world' just lets understand that the collective opinion of 'the rest of the world' (if there is such a thing), is totally irrelevant to the basic concern of the state of Israel for survival in the sea of envy and hate that surrounds it.

  6. Grapes are not harvested from thorn trees, nor are figs gathered from thistles, for they yield no fruit. If all you sow are thorns and thistles, so will you reap the fruit of what you sow.

    A wise man once said: "You see the sliver in your friend's eye, but you don't see the timber in your own." That isn't a sea of envy that surrounds you, it is a sea of hate, anger and fear and as you stir its waters so you encourage its storms.

    You have become so filled with your own anger, hate and fear you are now blind. This same wise man also said, "If a blind person leads a bind person, both of them will fall into a hole." Your beliefs and actions are not guiding Israel toward an independent, safe and secure state. Rather, you are guiding it toward the beginning of its end.

  7. PJW, the Balfour Declaration was a document approved by the League of Nations and by default adopted by the UN. That is an uncontestable fact of history.

    Israel's land mass is only a mere portion of what was originally promised, and only slighty bigger than it was in 47', due to relentess attempts by the Arabs to destroy the Jewish state.

    In the world you and your fellow traveller's inhabit, facts matter little, so it matters little what others think, but what official documents say.

    It doesn't surprise that you have no problem with the Jordanian and Egyptian occupation of the Judea and Samaria and Gaza for up until 67', since you refer to Jerusalem being "still occupied".

    If I scratch a bit further, I'm sure to uncover a person who believes all of Israel is "occupied land", which would place your thinking alongside the that of the Hamas and Fattah.

  8. KGS:
    There was no implementation of the Balfour Declaration. Israel did not come into formal existence again until after the UN was established and that IS an undeniable fact of world history. The UN did not establish the size of Israel based on the Balfour Declaration. Look at the 1948 UN maps.

    If you look at the original UN plans for Israel it is undeniably bigger today than it was in 1948 when it was created. That is also a fact.

    Jerusalem was never deeded to Israel. It was suppose to be an INTERNATIONAL CITY not under Jewish or Arab control. That is also a fact. Just because it has been occupied by different groups does not change that fact.

    I am well aware of the Arab dislike of Israel and their resistance to the Jewish state. I am aware of the war in 1949 in which Arab nations attempted to destroy Israel and the 1967 seven day war in which Israel preemptively defeated its Arab neighbors massing on its borders preparing to attack it. Israel was victorious both times. Each time Israel took more land. Israel showed little kindness to the Palestinians living in its newly occupied territory. Check your history that is also a fact.

    The West Bank and Gaza were not given to Jordan or Egypt. However, they are not the ones who have occupied the West Bank for the last 42 years and Gaza for nearly 40 years.

    Israel has a "right to exist" and it has a "right to defend itself". What Israel does not have a right to do is unilaterally decide it can take by acts of war whatever land it wants. Apparently you feel it does and this is where we part ways.

    Nor do I believe Israel can continue to use the "what can I do, my neighbors hate me" defense for its actions and behaviors. Yes they do, but at what point does Israel assume ANY responsibility for contributing to their hate, after 20, 40, 80, 100 years? Certainly not after 40 years if you are still excusing all its problems on the Palestinians.


    Wrong PJW 5552, the League of Nations did in fact accept the Balfour Declaration . Read up.

    The UN by default, was duty bound to accept the L of N's existing charters and agreements. The Balfour Declaration became the backbone of the Palestine Mandate. Yes the areas set aside for the new Jewish state where repeatedly changed, but the Arabs REJECTED partition, rendering those areas undesignated, or disputed territories.

    The Jews accepted partition, choosing to live in the land already bought and paid for by Jewish Land Fund. The original mandate founded on the Balfour Declaration did not cease to exist after the vote for partition, but is as relevent today as when it was accepted by the Leagie of Nations. Jews have every right to settle the land till this day, in accordance with the Balfour Declarations approval of "close settlement of the land", because the land in question is in fact, not only land gained in a war on non-aggression, it still happens to fall under the Balfour Declaration as land set aside for Jewish development.

    Jerusalem is now the defacto capital of the Jewish state of Israel. No one has the right to tell what city Israel should or shouldn't have as it's capital in its sovereign area. The whole idea of the UN partitition mandate was null and voided when the Arabs chose to REJECT it, Israel is legally well within its rights to hold land won in a war not of its choosing.

    Again, Jordan and Egypt illegally occupied land after 48' that was not ever considered theirs, the UN did not recognize their land grab, but the UN did in fact recognize Israel's right to be in Judea and Samaria after the end of the 67' war, which is proven by the UNSC's chapter 6 resolution, and the clear wording of the document.

    Israel was never expected to withdraw from of the territory, but only from a portion of it. So, in accordance with UNSCR 242, Israel maintains some territory in what you call the WB, and the rest will be decided through negotiations, hence the chapter 6 nature of the resolution. You err in thinking that states who launch a war, and lose portions of their land after the fighting stops, have every right to it back. Think again. The Russians have the Kuril islands once longing to Japan, and the north and south areas of Finland's eastern border.

    Israel is the only state in recent history that has actually given back land it won fair and square in the 67' war, when it gave back all of the Siniai peninsula to Egypt. Funny how you missed that. As for people and state hating the Jewish state, it's called anti-Semitism, which is soleley responsible for the wars and terrorist wars launched on the Jewish state since it won its independence.

  10. KGS:
    The Balfour Declaration was never implemented. The British abandon the idea of establishing a Jewish state in 1938 before the UN was ever established or envisioned. The UN made any prior partitioning of Palestine null and void when it established the state of Israel and the Jewish people accepted that state.

    The Jewish people are not entitled to all land in the Balfour Declaration. Not a single nation in the UN Security Council recognizes Israel's right to remain in control of the occupied territory. Perhaps you need to go back a re-read UN Res. 242 adopted in Nov. 1967, a binding resolution on Israel that it refuses to recognize or abide by even today 42 years later.

    Your effort to call the 1967 war a "war of non-aggression" is a pathetic excuse for justifying Israeli occupation of this territory. Israel has NO RIGHT to the occupied territory and that fact has been made clear to Israel numerous times by numerous nations and US Presidents. Attempting to justify this based on other contested land is inexcusable.

    Israel is the only nation to give back land in war? The US gave back Okinawa to Japan in 1972 and the Panama Canal to Panama in 1999. The US has offered to let other territories it occupies have their freedom or become states (like Puerto Rico). The US and its allies gave back control of most land conquered in WWII to its original owners. These actions served as the basis for UN Resolution 242 that nations embrace the “inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war”. Only Israel refuses to accept this as including the occupied territory it controls.

    Israel may feel Jerusalem belongs to Israel, but no US administration has ever recognized Israel’s right to claim ownership of Jerusalem. The US has NEVER moved its embassy to Jerusalem and several UN resolutions have passed the General Assembly telling Israel it has not right to unilaterally declare Jerusalem (a contested city) its capital. Only Israel still claims Jerusalem is not a contested city. You can claim whatever you like, that doesn’t mean your claim has validity.

    The problems in the Middle East would end tomorrow if Israel abided by a policy of treating all people throughout the region equally in Israel proper and in the occupied territory it controls. It does not. Palestinians are 2nd class citizens on their own land. Many have had their land confiscated by Israel and others have been evicted and kicked out entirely. They are walled in and endure endless indignities, roadblocks and humiliations under Israeli occupation. Palestinians in the WB are not allowed to vote in Israeli elections. They are not provided the same protections or rights as Jewish people. You can't have it both ways. If you are going to claim the WB as Israel's you must treat all people throughout that land equally to Jews. You do not. They are not citizens of Israel or people with equal rights with Jews.

    Israel does pretty much what it wants and then claims the Palestinians are the problem. If I had to live under that type of Israeli occupation and rule I (and many other Americans) would be a problem as well. The problem is you refuse to see the truth except through your own limited vantage point. Palestinians are the problem. Palestinians are terrorists. Tell me, how is the indiscriminate and more than proportional use of force by Israel against civilians and civilian infrastructure in Gaza any different than Hamas shooting rockets indiscriminately into Israel? What's the difference, they started it? Israel may have the power to do what it likes, but power does not define right. Right is defined by truth and justice and thus far Israeli actions are not and have not for some years been represented by either of those standards. You may chose to ignore what you wish, but those of us who follow the conflict do not. FACTS matter!

  11. Part 1

    The Balfour Declaraion was indeed implented, in part, by the founding of the Jewish state of Israel. The British turned the Mandate over to the League of Nations which then became the United Nations, which eventually approved of partition. The Arabs rejected their second Palestinian state, so the area of Judea and Samaria never reached final status. So, by default, the Balfour Declaration still holds for that land until a final negotiations settles who has what. Period.

    Again, it's irrelevant what others think, but what the documents say. UNSCR 242, (again) is a chapter 6 resolution, which by default, renders Israel's presence in the areas of Judea and Samaria, and formerly in Gaza, as being intirely legal. It could never be considered an illegal occupation due to 242 being a chapter 6 resolution. Why you fail to understand that salient point is beyond me. It is NOT a binding resolution, on the contrary, it calls for negotiations to settle the conflict, not an imposing of one.

    Interestingly enough, you tell me re-read the resolution, while you appear totally ignorant of the difference between a chapter 6 & 7 UNS resolution. Hmmmmmm. Also very noticeable is your mentioning only Israel in connection with 242, why not mention the other parties to the conflict, THE ARABS? UNSCR 242 calls on all parties that were involved in the conflict to negotiate a final settlement, but yet, you mention only Israel. Sorry Peter, but as of right now, anyone reading this exchange, realizes just how disengenuous your ascertion really is.

    Funny how you pass over the Russians, in connection with lands being given back to their former owners. The US gave back something that they had every right in keeping, but for their own self interests, deemed it not worth keeping. "The inadmissibility of the aquistion of territory by war", was a sop to the Arabs and the Russians in exchange for leaving the "THE" out of UNSCR 242, which by the way, does not call for Israel to leave every square centimeter of Judea and Samaria or Gaza for that matter. Read up on US Under-Scretarty of State Eugene Rostow's views on the matter, he happened to be one of the people majorly responsible for crafting 242, who states exactly what I just wrote.

    Besides, once again you forget to remember that Israel gave back a land mass 3-4 times the size of Israel itself for an eventual peace with Egypt, which shows that when the Arabs get serious, Israel is ready to make a deal. You also forgot to mention the giving back of Gaza as well. I'm sure that the others reading this exchange are seeing some very interesting trends in your argumentation.

    The anti-Israel UN General Assembly can pass resolutions to they are "blue in the face", but they don't mean a thing, other than politically motivated machinations against Israel by the OIC the Arab League and the NAM, who pass one highly ludicrus (and non-binding) resolution after the other against the Jewish state. Israel has learned to expect from the GA the same kind of "justice" a black American could expect from an all white court in a segregated South. They may convict on a regular basis, but it doesn't mean that their rulings were just.

    Excuse me for not taken the rest of your comments seriously. Israel has a working, thriving democracy where everyone has equal rights, including Arabs, Christians, Muslims and Druze, of which the latter proudly serve in the IDF and have reached high office in the military and Ministry of Foreign Affairs etc.. One of the former Israeli ambassadors to Finland was an Israeli Arab, and a proud Israeli. So while there may be inequality on some levels in Israeli society, it happens to mirror all societies in general. There is no such thing as a perfect society.

  12. Part II

    Funny how you mention road blocks, the security fence bla bla bla, but fail to mention the reasons why they were put into place, ARAB TERRORISM. There were no such measures in the 70's, 80's until Arafat and his thugs were welcomed into Israel's back yard, then as a result of their terrorist war, measures had to be implemented in oreder to save Israeli lives. To end those measures only means a restart of the violence. You appear willing to get rid of them regardless of it resulting in dead Jews. Again, the people reading this will be taking note of your warped thinking.

    Autonomy or reunification with Jordan is the only option, the two state intitiative is dead. Jews want a Jewish majority to ensure they are still left a sanctuary where Jews can be safe. As for occupation, not an entirely true claim, since there were no high contracting power in Judea and Samaria when the land came into Israeli possession, Arabs fared far better under direct Israeli rule than under Arafatian thugocracy and teh nightmare that is Hamastan. Read Efraim Karsh's piece about Finnish FM Erkki Tuomioja, google both names and you find his article. It's devastating to the mumbo jumbo nonsense offered by you anti-Israel nay-sayers.

    Also, thank you for saying theat Israel used "proportional force" in the Gaza war this year, it's exactly what the Tundra Tabloids has been saying all along. But hey, we all know what you really meant. Israel used discriminate use of force, as did Hamas. Israel intentionally took out facilities in use by Hamas operatives, targeted their men, and carried out an exact as possible surgical war effort while trying to limit civilian casualties.

    Hamas and ilk, discriminately fired their rockets and mortars at Israeli civilian centers, that they weren't lucky enough to kill more, owes not to their lack of trying. The planning, financing, building and launching of Kassem rockets, which have no military use, constitutes a war crime. Every time a terrorist launches one from a playground, in front of UN run school, or from the roof top of a mosque, constitutes a war crime. If a military command center is located underneath a hospital, which Israel chose not to touch, constitutes a war crime. Using children as gun runners and cannon fodder, constitutes a war crime. Calling people into an area that's a military target due to weapons and munitions….is a war crime.

    So yes Peter, honest, true, hard facts matter, so try using them. KGS

  13. KGS:
    First, the British were in charge of Palestine region after WWI. The Balfour document states that Jews could have a National home in Palestine; it did not give them all of Palestine. As Jews streamed into Palestine from Europe it became clear they and Arabs would not live together in peace. The idea of a formal Jewish state was recognized as the only option by 1937 and the formal portioning of the Jewish and Palestinian states was completed in 1948. To suggest the Balfour document entitles Jews to all of Palestine is a gross exaggeration of the fact. It provided them a presence in Palestine, not total control over it. Sorry you missed the difference between the words “presence” and “control over”.
    Second, I didn't say Israel used "proportional force" in Gaza, I said it "used MORE than proportional force". Neither did I support Hamas firing rockets into Israel. I think you are both terrorists with exactly the same disregard and disrespect of human life.
    Israel and Israeli’s refuse to see themselves or blame themselves for anything. It is always the Arabs who are responsible for the problems. You condemn yourself by your own words. Israel is a democracy that doesn't do anything wrong, or is it Israel can't do anything wrong? I keep forgetting.
    Good fences make good neighbors, right? However, if the fences prevent a neighbor from moving freely about and carrying out their daily routine the fences really aren't about encouraging a separate and independent situation between Israeli and Palestinian people are they? If one then confiscates land and moves Jewish settlers onto land taken from prior Palestinian owners, what do you call that, justice? Maybe it doesn't matter what anyone tells you since it is "irrelevant what others think."
    You are blinded by your own limited view and ability to understand the hypocrisy of your position. One of the goals of the Belfour declaration was that the rights of non-Jewish citizens be preserved. I guess if you have some token Arabs in the IDF and foreign office that is all the proof you need for robbing the remaining 99% of Arabs in occupied territories of their dignity and human rights. Oh wait, I forgot it’s their fault.
    Let us not forget why Jewish people moved out of Gaza and returned the land to Palestinians. Israel was building a 20 foot high cement wall around Gaza with lookout turrets every 50-100 yards to keep a watch on any and all Palestinians in Gaza who might want to breach the wall. If it looks like a prison, works like a prison and people are not allowed to leave without Israeli permission, I guess we call it a “Palestinian Homeland”. With food, medicine, travel and trade controlled by Israel, the Palestinians aren't even able see the Mediterranean Sea or swim in it. Tell me, how’s that all working out? Cutting down on the hate and anger of Palestinians in Gaza is it? Rocket attacks down because of Israel's fair minded solutions? Oh wait, I keep forgetting it’s all the Palestinians fault they hate you. Israel never does anything wrong, or is it Israel can't do anything wrong, it’s so hard for me to keep those two concepts straight.
    Well, Russia hasn’t returned all the territory it took in WWII, so Israel must surely be entitled to do the same. Always best to embrace the lowest standards used by others to justify what you do. Small wonder Israel’s effort to promote Operation Cast Lead is embraced by the world as a stellar example of Jewish arrogance rather than a paragon of Jewish virtue. Set your standards low enough and it all looks good. Does it really matter hundreds of Palestinians died and the public infrastructure in Gaza was destroyed, not really if you don’t care who dies or what is destroyed. If Israel didn’t destroy sewer treatment plants, who knows what shit they will throw at you next. Killing off livestock and destruction of food production, well that certainly ensures Palestinians can’t start any food fights from Gaza.

  14. Part I

    Try again Peter. At the time the Balfour declaration was crafted, delivered and approved by the LN, Palestine included both sections of land on either side of the Jordan river. The Jews were NOT given any land, the UN in its call for partition, just accepted the reality of a Jewish state in waiting, on existing areas already under their control through the funding of the Jewish Land Fund, which PAID IN FULL for every spec the Yishuv rested on.

    You are guilty of repeating and supporting a highly falacious meme that the UN "gave land to the Jews", which it did no such thing. The UN's acceptence of the reality of entirely legal Jewish settlements, bought and paid for, on the ground, is what you're pissed off about, but too bad, you can't change history, no matter how hard you try to re-invent it now.

    It became clear that there would be no peace between the two sides, [1] when the highly influential more moderate Nashashibi family in Palestine lost out to the hardline Husseini clan which was headed by the anti-semite and international war criminal, Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Every suggestion offered by the Jews and the Brits were met with rejection. That's the reason for the troubles, the Husseini clan, from which sprang Yasser Arafat, who idolized the dead NAZI war criminal.[2]

    The area of Palestine east of the Jordan river, formely called Trans-Jordan, now Jordan, is no longer available for Jews, in fact their is an apartheid ban on the selling of land to a Jew, something of which no pro-Arab supporter has a problem with. Funny how that is. The Western half of what is referred to as the West Bank, formerly "Palestine", became disputed territory once the Arabs rejected partition, and then when the Arab armies came in to destroy the nascent Jewish state and to illegally occupy it.

    The land is still in dispute, but existing legal documents dating from the Balfour declartion, in fact, do not prohibit a Jew from building a home in his/her ancient homeland. Legally talking, Jews are well within their rights to live in that area. Final border arrangements will determine the boundries for a future "Palistinian" state (no.2 with Jordan being the first) if they ever get serious about having one. Until that time, the area will remain disputed. The option of merging some portions of judea and Samaria with the Jordanians and Gaza with Egypt, are looking better with each days passing.

    Your nonsense about both sides, Israel and Hamas as being morally the same is predictable as it is regrettable. Nothing will ever persuade you of course, but at least you'll have to admit, that, Israel refrains from tossing off its opposition from tall buildings, nor does it order summary executions of its prisoners, nor use children in their field ops, nor indoctrinate them with foul death cult notions, nor turn productive agriculture businesses into dust bowls while savaging mosques that were used solely as a house pf prayer. At least give Israel that much credit.

  15. Part II

    Israel does admit to its wrongs, that's why they have a supreme court, which has ruled on repeated occasions against its officials and military. The IDF is the only army in the world (that I know of) in which the supreme court has direct influence on its methods. Lets be fair here. As for proportional force, you first explain to me the doctrine behind it. Once you find that one out, the internationally accepted version based on the geneva conventions, then get back to me. You haven't a clue. It doesn't mean responding in kind for each act of aggression, it's far more involved than that.

    When you talk about fences, why is it you omit, very noticeably, the reason behind the building of it? Islamic terrorism, done in the name of jihad. Israel lived without them for decades until Arafat and thugs came into their backyard and revved up the violence. funny how you skirt that one. Land "confiscated" for the building of the fence is reimbursed to the owner, or in some cases, leased. The lif of the individual far outweighs the ease in which one may travel from point a to point b. You'll not convince me otherwise.

    My views are formed by hte reality on the ground and by the ease humanitarian racists like yourself are willing to look between your fingers at the insane behavior of the Arabs in the disputed territories. Your refusal to condemn their own human rights violations against their own people speaks volumes. Until the Arabs and their supporters begin to treat the Arab citizen as an adult, and as an equal, who is repsonsible for the protection of human rights, then you, and they will always remain a part of the problem.

    The "token" Arabs you refer to are the Druze and other Arabs who want to get on with their lives and not be permanent "victims" that YOU and others prefer them to be. Shame on you. You will then deem the former Arab Israeli ambassador to Finland as a traitor as well. How predictable. Sad really, because you doom all Arabs to life of squalor just so you can feel vindicated about your views on Israel.

    Again, Gaza is not controlled exclusively by Israel. The state of Egypt controls the length of its border with it, funny how you missed that one as well. According to you, Israel gets its kicks from controlling Arabs, how sick of a thought. The security is well needed, or would you prefer kidnapped or dead Israeli cilivians in place of the border patrols, just to suit your peace of mind?

    The Arabs labeled "Palestinians" have an ocean view in Gaza, the swim in it, and when they're not blown up by planted Hamas land mines in the sand, areable to enjoy the summer breeze on its sandy shores. As for keeping the hate ramped up, the Arabs do that all by themselves rather effectively, in their mosques (Jews are regularly referred to as apes and pigs) schools, summer camps for kids, on television and radio. The incitement of Jews is never ending.

    As for the rest of your views about Operation Cast Lead, they're simply misguided, factually challenged and over the top, which pretty much explains your intire comments at the TT. KGS


  16. KGS:
    You are again twisting my words and altering them to suit your own purpose. I said the Balfour document allowed Jews a “presence” in Palestine, not “gave it” land in Palestine. Yes, the earliest Jewish people to migrate to the area after the Belfour Declaration did buy up land. However, it didn’t take long before war broke out between the Zionists and the Arabs. Menachem Begin and Ben Gurion were both considered Jewish terrorists in their day not freedom fighters. After the war of 1949, the Israeli’s were certainly NOT buying land from Palestinians, they were confiscating it. Many displaced Palestinians today are still seeking retribution for the confiscation of their land and Israel has steadfastly refused. Would it surprise you to learn the Arabs would start kicking Jews out of their countries AFTER Israel began kicking Palestinians out of Israel and started confiscating more of their land? Check your time lines.

    The West Bank was never officially part of Israel based on the original maps of the State of Israel drawn by the UN in 1947. It wasn’t even part of the Israel Weizmann and Faisal agreed it would be back in 1920. What you are stating is that because the Arabs started (or certainly were planning war against Israel) Israel now has a right to the entire West Bank, home of some 3.5 million people, mostly Palestinian. Yes, that is when the serious dispute began, when Israel started moving Palestinians out so it could move Jewish settlers into a territory previously agreed to be Arab and not part of Israel.

    By the way, the sole “gate” from Gaza to Egypt was closed by Israel after Hamas took control of Gaza. Israel patrols the waters off Gaza and allows fishing only to a certain limit by Palestinian boats. Israel controls the air over Gaza with observation balloons and drones. Israel controls the flow of everything into and out of Gaza through its limited gates. You are correct and I was wrong about the wall blocking off Gaza access to the sea, it doesn’t do that.

    You feed the hate and you wonder why it grows so well? You rob the soil of the key ingredients needed to produce the sweet fruit of peace and you wonder why there isn’t any? One reaps what one sows so only an individual who did not care about the consequences would sit and argue the fruit is bitter, but it is not their fault when they planted the tree and encouraging its growth. I find neither the Israeli’s or Arab terrorists innocent of these problems. One encourages the growth of the other and all people in the middle reap the bitter rewards of their actions.

    We all have our mental barriers, walls we create because we don’t wish to accept the obvious. Obstacles we produce because we don’t wish to believe that which questions our faith and cherished beliefs. Blinders we put on so as not to distract ourselves from that which we wish to embrace instead of what is real. We often will go to great lengths to avoid the truth or pretend it isn’t real so we can continue to live a fantasy and embrace a view that is more pleasing to our senses. We avoid because we want to continue to have faith. We ignore because we want to continue to embrace and all of this keeps us from seeing the truth, accepting the obvious and distinguishing real from imagined. Is it not easier to believe I am a “racist humanitarian” than simply a concerned citizen who simply doesn't accept your perspective of the world?

  17. I'm not twisting anythin, you are being rather disingenuous here Peter.

    Peter: "The Balfour document states that Jews could have a National home in Palestine; it did not give them all of Palestine."

    What you are simply stating here is, that the Jews were not "given" all of Palestine, just a portion of it. It's very clear that you stated that Israel was being given the portion of land it was going to call its own, how ever much that was to be. You are the one that messed up, not me.

    Funny how you pass up once again the fact that it was the Arabs that rejected everything, from negotiations to partion itself and then launching a war of aggression on the nascent Jewish state. Ben Gurion was the defacto leader of the Haganah and flat out rejected terorrism of the Irgun and Stern gang. As far as terrorism goes, at least the Jewish terrorists warned the target area, as opposed to atrocities that passes for normal in Arab /Muslim world.

    The land ISrael won in battle is land won fair and square. Shut up about it, unless you intend to camp out in front of the next Russian embassy and demand that they return former Finnish soil back Finland.

    Jews did not systematically kick Arabs out of their homes, yes people were moved out of harms way, and areas, due to strategic military campaigns, had to emptied out, but where no such campaign existed, Arabs were asked to remain in their homes. Arabs on the other hand encouraged their people to leave and only return when they have obliterated the Jews.

    Displaced Palestinians join the ranks of all other refugees made due to war. Israel allowed a couple hundred thousand to return, that shold be the end of it. But here you take it one step further.

    Arab states, who have no border with the Jewish state, victimized Jews within their own home states, and force them to leave, though these Jews had nothing to do with the birth of Israel. Thanks for bringing that up, you underline that often left out fact, that there was in fact, an exchange of populations. Far more Jews were expelled (for no reason at all , only because they were Jews) than Arabs, yet they managed to provide for them, unlike the Arabs that have kept them living in swill.

    Time line matter little here, you just sunk your own debate, by proving that the Arabs at that time in hisotry were vindictive, and cared little for Jews, who had lived in their states for centuries. They hadn't even lifted a finger in hostitlities yet they were driven out lock, stock and barrel. Thanks for pointing that all out Peter!

    What you say about Judea and Samaria is irrelevent, read up once more what I wrote in the above about it all, apparently you glossed over it, for now you're repeating old baseless claims again.

    OBTW; the "sole" gate you refer to between Egypt and Gaza, is manned by egyptians, not IDF. Check your facts again. And spare me the nonsense about robbing anything, and creating barriers, what drivel. The moment Hamas and Fattah end the violence and call it quits, which means lowering their guns, peace will break out. The moment Israel does that without a truly peaceful Arab partner, they'll be massacred.

    So spare me the nonsense, people here reading this exchange will see all too clearly how little you care for real peace, seeing that you promote every ridiculous claim, charge and blood libel of the genocidal Islamic supremacists in Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fattah.

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