Splitting hairs over nuance.

The Baron’s answer to SC is the most plausible of rational actions to take. Read on.

What is Al-Azhar University? And What is Takfir?

Last weekend I posted about the refusal of scholars at Al-Azhar University to pronouncetakfir (the accusation aimed at a fellow Muslim or Muslim of kufr, or unbelief) against the Islamic State. In my introduction, I characterized Al-Azhar, as I often do, as “the closest equivalent to the Vatican that can be found in Islam.”

A commenter named SC took exception to that statement and other aspects of my post. His remarks are worth reproducing here in their entirety:

This article is one of the reasons I simply cringe at discussions of Islam by one-off references to Jewish or Christian institutions, terminology, and typology.

Although very powerful and influential, Al-Azhar is NOT the Sunni equivalent to the Vatican.

Takfirism is NOT Islamic anathema. The repeated use of the term anathema in the article is both disturbing and distorting.

Takfirism is NOT a recognized Sunni instrument outside of Taymiyyan Hanbalism — and within it Wahhabism. This is among the most central of friction points between Taymiyyans (100% of Wahhabis are Taymiyyan but only 85% of Taymiyyans are Wahhabi) and the broader Sunni Islam. Takfir can be traced to Ibn Taymiyyah. While Al-Azhar has been vulnerable to initiatives to mainstream takfirism from time to time, in the main, it has opposed the doctrine and been among the more pronounced centers of opposition.

Can anyone show Al-Azhar ever calling someone Takfir where it was not a Wahhabis who got on staff through Saudi (or other Persian Gulf Wahhabi state) influence?

Continue reading


ahmad al s

Sunni Muslim Pope Sanctions Islamic Jew-Hatred Based Upon Koran 5:82

Since its founding in 973 C.E., Al Azhar University (and its mosque) have represented a pinnacle of Islamic religious education, which evolved into the de facto Vatican of Sunni Islam. Unfortunately, during that same millennium, through the present era, Al Azhar and its leading clerics have represented and espoused the unreformed, unrepentant jihad bellicosity and infidel hatred at the core of mainstream, institutional Islam.

Al Azhar’s contemporary espousal of sacralized Islamic animosity has been directed, unsurprisingly, against Jews and Israel, dating back to the 20th century origins, and ultimate creation, of the modern Jewish State. Despite nearly universal willful blindness by media, academic, and policymaking elites, this critical issue of sacralized incitement of Muslim Jew-hatred by Islam’s Sunni Muslim Vatican, remains center stage.

Ahmad Al-Tayeb, as current Grand Imam of Al-Azhar, is the Sunni Muslim Papal equivalent. During an interview with Al-Tayeb, which recently aired on Channel 1, Egyptian TV, October 25, 2013, the Al-Azhar Grand Imam gave a brief explanation of the ongoing relevance of the Koranic verse 5:82 (sura, or chapter 5, verse 82) which has been invoked—“successfully”—to inspire Muslim hatred of Jews since the advent of Islam….

More here.



Remember, Obama heaped praise on al-Azhar during his infamous ‘Cairo speech’ in 2009.

obama cairo2

 For over a thousand years, Al-Azhar has stood as a beacon of Islamic learning; and for over a century, Cairo University has been a source of Egypt’s advancement.

“This video footage is taken from a televised show on Al-Tahrir TV channel (Egypt) showing a guest quoting passages from a book – titled ‘al-Iqnaa’ (The Persuasion) – issued by al-Azhar University (one of the world’s oldest universities & the most prestigious Islamic school) being taught to Egyptian high-school students that calls for the killing of sinners – such as apostates, those who don’t pray, adulterers, and those who have a punishment set for them – as well as their eating.”



He’s right!

And to think that Obama offered the following words of praise for Al-Azhar University in his 2009 speech in Cairo:

“I am honored to be in the timeless city of Cairo, and to be hosted by two remarkable institutions. For over a thousand years, Al-Azhar has stood as a beacon of Islamic learning…”

From Jihad Watch: (H/T: Fjordman)

 Hashem Islam is working from Qur’an 9:111, which promises Paradise to those who “kill and are killed” for Allah.

Al-Azhar cleric: jihad martyrdom suicide bombings are a religious duty, pleasing to Allah

“Al-Azhar Cleric Hashem Islam Ali Islam: Suicide Bombings Are a Religious Duty,” from MEMRI, July 12:

Following are excerpts from a program featuring Egyptian cleric Hashem Islam Ali Islam, a member of the Fatwa Committee of Al-Azhar, which aired on Al Aqsa TV on July 12, 2012.
I say to people who object to martyrdom operations that martyrdom operations are among the deeds most pleasing to Allah.

They constitute a religious duty in this day and age, in order to strike at the Zionist enemy….

More here.



This sheik, Mahmoud Ashour, is the deputy rector of the very same Islamic institution that US president, Barack Hussein Obama, issued the following words of praise: “For over a thousand years, Al-Azhar has stood as a beacon of Islamic learning, “.

What that Islamic learning embodied was classical Islamic hatred of the other, meaning anyone not a Muslim, and/or Muslims not following traditional Koranic teachings. This university is actually a fountain of 7th century backwardness and hatred and it’s fitting that this sheik represents it, he embodies the full evil body and spirit of Al Azhar. KGS


Returning to far more troubling aspects of the good sheikh’s IslamicWeltanschauung, the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) has just translated very candid remarks he made in Arabic during his recent sojourn in Iran which aired on Al-Alam Iranian TV, September 30, 2011. MEMRI’s clip transcript captures the unrelenting jihadism and Koranic Jew-hatred authoritative figures from mainstream Islam’s major “academic” training institution continue to espouse:

I say to all my brothers and sisters: Jihad has become an individual duty incumbent upon each and every one of us, because our enemies have grown arrogant and have persisted in their great tyranny. In an even uglier display, they publicly declare their support and defense of injustice, even though they boast that they denounce any injustice and that they are the ones who legislate human rights. But the rights of what human are they defending and supporting? They support the unjust oppressors, the offspring of pigs and apes. [Koran 5:60

More here.



US President Barack Obama in Cairo addressing the Muslim world, 4 Jun 2009; “For over a thousand years, Al-Azhar has stood as a beacon of Islamic learning, and for over a century, Cairo University has been a source of Egypt’s advancement. Together, you represent the harmony between tradition and progress.”

US policy vis-a-vis Islam has been a joke that’s only been intensified under the current fecal regime. Bush jr. was no better in picking the right strategy to follow in carrying out the propaganda war against the jihad, but the former admin was of course much closer to to the truth than Obama’s, at least he tired to use the ‘Islamofacism’ label, but discontinued it after the predictable uproar by the Left and Islamic communities.

Here we have once again, ample proof that Islam is always on the offensive, even when it’s not engaged in any violence, it’s always on the move. It refuses to stand idle, no forward motion means stalling for the Mussulman and as Barry Rubin points out, the most respected Islamic university in the Islamic world:

“is now calling for a seventh-century-style Jihad against non-Muslim lands even if the victims cannot be accused of attacking Muslim-ruled lands.”

Whenever Islam feels itself in ascendency, the’ mask of peace’ comes off and the trouble begins. The Tundra Tabloids received the following comment from a blogger in India, Raj, who offers the following birds-eye witness of what he’s seen on the ground in India:

Raj: Well, I respect your view and agree completely, having lived in India which has one of the largest Muslim populations, I know it for a fact that most Muslims will masquerade as law abiding people who like a multi cultural society are at least ok with it. But the conditioning each Muslim receives growing up from his/her elders, their religious leaders (Imams and Maulvi’s) and from their holy book, never leaves them. Most Muslim men (and women too even though the law is the toughest on them) will fight for and murder to bring about Sharia when the time comes. In fact, the message to have 7,8, 9 children is openly blared from speakers whenever you pass a mosque in a Muslim neighborhoods during their ‘religious’ meetings – “Alah wants you to create an army of soldiers to fight kaffirs (Infidels)”

Those people who hail from communities that rub up against Islamic communities always have a different story to tell about their ‘multicultural experience’ with Islam, which is in fact a highly aggressive monoculture that strips previous cultures bare, leaving something entirely alien in its place. Now, here is Barry Rubin’s timely piece on the new fatwa issued by Dr.Imad Mustafa. KGS

Two Big Developments: Lebanon: Government Falls; Egypt/Islam: Jihad? We’re Just Getting Started!

[…] An extraordinarily important fatwa has been issued by Dr. Imad Mustafa, the professor on that subject at al-Azhar University, the world’s most important Islamic university. He began by stating the well-known doctrine of “defensive jihad,” that is Muslims must go to war against infidels who attack them. Of course, the word “attack” is often spread rather thinly to justify aggression.

But now Mustafa has publicly and explicitly come up with a new concept, one that up until now was supposedly restricted to groups like al-Qaida:

“Then there is another type of fighting against the non-Muslims known as offensive jihad…which is to pursue the infidels into their own land without any aggression [on their part]….

“…Two schools [of Islamic jurisprudence] have ruled that offensive jihad is permissible in order to secure Islam’s border, to extend God’s religion to people in cases where the governments do not allow it, such as the Pharaoh did with the children of Israel, and to remove every religion but Islam from the Arabian peninsula….”

What does it mean about extending “God’s religion,” i.e., Islam? On the surface, “where the governments do not allow it” and the reference to Pharaoh seems to imply the complete prohibition of Islam.

But in the current context, I think this means that it is permissible to wage jihad on a country.if anything “necessary” to Islam according to (hardline) clerics’ interpretations is blocked (polygamy, child marriage, special privileges at work places, building mosques anywhere, permitting the wearing of headscarves or burqas, and so on).

In practice, according to this doctrine, then, any non-Muslim can be attacked anywhere in the world. Thus, mainstream, powerful clerics are now calling for a seventh-century-style Jihad against non-Muslim lands even if the victims cannot be accused of attacking Muslim-ruled lands! Merely to “extend God’s religion” to others is a sufficient motive. Mustafa says that two of Islam’s main schools have always endorsed offensive Jihad but I doubt if he would have made that argument ten or twenty years ago.

Read it all here.


They’re calling it “landmark”. Lets just say that the proof of the pudding is in the eating, or, I’ll believe that a new wind is blowing when I feel it. The danger here is for everyone to drop their guard. The TT smells a hint of hudna in the air. KGS

UPDATE: The Sheik pays us a visit and graciously deposits his ancient wisdom:

Not hudna, da’awa! Its just another effort to convince the Jews that they “have gone astray”, that they should mend their ways, that they have “falsified/forged” their scriptures which deny the coming of the profit Muhammad (the last profit) and that they will be allowed to live under Islamic rule (as dhimmies, protected people) like it always was. Such is the natural order of things and anyone who has “logic & reason” would acknowledge that. But we also know that Jews (that includes me) are stubborn creatures who will not submit, so back to square one…..

I’ll give it 2 thumbs down.

Al-Azhar to start dialogue with Jewish scholars

Whilst the statement failed to mention Judaism by name, Mohamed Elsharkawy, a spokesman for Britain’s Grand mufti, said it was aimed at a Jewish audience.

“I am not at liberty to say how hard it was to draft the document,” he said. “In the process, the people who have taken the document forward have done so at great risk and danger, and so they’ve done that very carefully. There already exists a dialogue with Christians, so anyone with two brain cells can add up to what is being said here”.



Pope: To burn or not to burn, that is the question.
How rich, the al-Azhar official is crying about the Floridian pastor “ruining US-Islamic world relation, though the Koran and hadiths preach that Jews and Christians corrupted their own holy books, homosexuals be thrown off mountain cliffs, Jews are the sons of ape and pigs and infidels should be butchered etc. etc. etc. etc.   Frankly, I couldn’t care less what these Islamic religious leaders say, let the pastor burn truckloads of Korans for all I care. KGS

al-Azhar supremacist cry babies

A TOP official at Cairo’s Al-Azhar university is warning that a Florida church’s plan to burn copies of the Koran risks destroying ties.

“If the government fails to stop this, this will be the latest manifestation of religious terrorism, and it would ruin America’s relations with the Muslim world,” said Sheikh Abdel Muti al-Bayyumi.
“This will give an opportunity to terrorism. Are they trying to fight terrorism or encourage it?” he sked.
The Dove World Outreach Centre, a small church in Gainesville, Florida, has vowed to mark Saturday’s ninth anniversary of the September 11, 2001 attacks by burning Korans to remember the almost 3000 people killed by al-Qaeda hijackers.
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has denounced the plans of the church’s pastor, Terry Jones, as “disgraceful.”

Read more



Remember folks, this is the very same university that US President, Barack Hussein Obama, praised in his address to the Islamic world: “For over a thousand years, Al-Azhar has had stood as a beacon of Islamic learning.” “It was Islam at places like Al-Azhar that carried the light of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe’s renaissance and enlightenment.”
Who are they trying to kid?

The Tundra Tabloids does not frame this as an issue of freedom of speech, which should automatically safeguard the pseudo scholar’s right to publish what he wants. The Egyptians have no credibility in presenting this as a freedom of speech issue at all, and do not deserve a scintilla of support because it’s an oppressive Islamic society, totalitarian, and where Islam enjoys a status that is above and beyond any criticism.There is no freedom of debate. 
In Egypt, and all over the Islamic world, there is no freedom to speak one’s own mind. Here  is what Natan Sharansky calls the ‘town square test’. “If a person can walk into the middle of the town square and express his or her views without fear of arrest, imprisonment, or physical harm, then that person is living in a free society, not a fear society. We cannot rest until every person living in a ‘fear’ society has finally won their freedom.”
In Egypt, if you state your mind about Islam, you’ll either be killed on the spot, or be hauled off to the local jail, beaten, and eventually found guilty of defamation. The same kind of mentality has been slowly creeping into European society, you know, the crime of  disturbing societal cohesion, and hate speech and all that. It’s becoming all too clear in Europe, that they’ll find a reason to throw you into the can and prosecute you if speak the obvious about Islam, which is indeed a flagrant breach of freedom of speech rights. Europe is becoming more like Egypt than many dare believe.  KGS

Muslim Scholar Publishes Anti-Christian Book in Egypt

Cairo (AINA) — Christian in Egypt are up in arms this week over a controversial book issued as a free supplement with this month’s Al-Azhar magazine, describing Christianity as a Religion of “idolatry” and claiming that the Holy Bible is a misquotation of the original one. The book was published by State-owned corporations that are financed by taxpayers, Christians as well as Muslims.

The controversial book is titled “Scientific Report” and authored by Dr. Muhammad Imarah, a member of Al-Azhar’s Islamic Research Academy (IRA), which is affiliated with the Ministry of Religious Endowments. The book discusses Christian dogma, casts doubts over it, and asserts that Christianity is a “religion of polytheism.”
Coptic lawyer Naguib Ghobrial, president of the Egyptian Union of Human Right Organization, has filed a complaint with the Attorney General against Dr. Mohamed Imarah, accusing him of adopting a systematic approach to “ruin Egypt by inciting sectarian rifts between the sons of one nation and defamation of a divine religion recognized by the Egyptian Constitution.”
Ghobrial added that what Imarah wrote “defames the Christian dogma, in contradiction with Article 98 of penal law dealing with derision of religion.”
Ms. Elaine Kellini, Coptic member of the People’s Assembly, said she has ordered a copy of Imarah’s book and would take legal action against him, if it was proven that he defamed Christianity.
The Egyptian Newspaper Al Destoor in its December 7 issue reviewed the controversial book, saying Imarah published his book in reply to a proselytizing book called “We Are Ready To Answer” by an unknown Christian author who took the alias name of Dr. Samir Morcos. Imarah said the book was presented to the Islamic Research Academy (IRA) to obtain permission for publication, which the IRA duly turned down, “as it contained many false allegations regarding Islam, making of the Koran a lie, therefore promoting hatred towards Christians,” and that he was obliged to answer back.
In a second statement to Al-Destoor, Imarah said that the Islamic Academy approved unanimously in its 25 June 2009 his “Scientific Report” and approved the recommendation to have it published as a supplement to Al-Azhar Magazine. He also changed his assertion about the origin of the alleged anti-Islam book, saying it was likely issued by foreign entities wanting to tamper with the tenets of Islam and harm national unity.
Most Christians in Egypt, believe that no such Christian writer or proselytizing book ever existed or was presented to the Islamic Academy, and that this imaginary book was used by Imarah, whom has a history of defaming Christianity, as a pretext to defame Christianity again. Many have questioned the usefulness of the laws of defamation of religions adopted by the State, when they are not applied uniformly.

H/T Baron Bodissey


Sheik Rattle-N-Roll Tantawi:
“Yes it’s true that I’m a hate filled anti-Semite and misogynist, who issues fatwas of incitement against the infidel, like promoting jihad against Israel and the West, it’s what I do. But I just can’t understand why my new found feminism is being undermined by the very Islamic fundamentalism I support and promote?”
The confused sheik. Bans the niqab as being un-Islamic, but not the hijab, though both are political symbols for fundamentalist Islam. In other words, in Islam’s true setting, these symbols are the fore runners for the complete domination of society and subjugation of the female in order to implement 7th century political Islam.
Jihad, whether it’s by outright violence or by slow coercion through the use of intimidation and threats to bodily harm, the process and the end result are the same.
The total bending of society to the authority of sharia law, and one of the first noticeable signs of the Islamizing process, is the emergence of visible “Islamic signs”, such as mosque building, along with hijab, niqab and/or burka wearing.
So it’s with amusement to read that the Grand Sheik is being sued by a by-product of his own Islamic fundamentalism. It’s a situation dripping with comedy and irony. KGS
ANSA: CAIRO, DECEMBER 2 – A post-graduate student has decided to take the Grand Sheikh of Al-Azhar, the highest seat of Sunni Islam teaching, to court for barring her from attending classes because she was donning the ‘niqab’ (a full face wear), a Cairo-based laywer announced. According to The Egyptian Gazette, El-Nabawi Ibrahim added that his client Huda Ramzi would sue Sheikh Mohamed Sayyed Tantawi for decreeing that all students, who wear the ‘niqab’, would not be allowed to attend Al-Azhar-run school, college and universities. Ibrahim, who accepted Hudàs case, dismissed Tantawi ban as a violation of constitutional and personal freedoms as well as an attack on religion. Last October Tantawi barred students and teachers from wearing the niqab because, he said, it was a custom which did not have anything to do with religion.

Andrew Bostom Interview: Obama’s Cairo Speech Disturbing on Many Levels…….

Al-Azhar University is the epic center
for the spreading of the jihad ideology

Dr.Andy Bostom: Obama’s speech catered to Cairo’s history
which is steeped in Nazism and the jihad ideology

The Tundra Tabloids’ dear colleague, Andrew Bostom, was interviewed on a US radio station shortly after the Obama Cairo Speech on June 4th. Andy’s views on the Cairo speech, as well as his interesting history lesson on Al-Azhar University’s traditional role of being the prime educating force for the Islamic doctrine of jihad, moved me to transcribe the entire interview in order to preserve it for the historical record. Read and learn. KGS


Obama: often are said only behind closed doors, there must be a sustained effort to listen to each other, to learn from each other, to respect one another, and to seek common ground. As the Holy Ko’ran tells us, be conscious of God and speak always the truth.

Helen Glover: This is talk radio 920 WHJJ, and I’m Helen Glover. That was the president yesterday, that speech in Cairo, where he said uh, change can not happen over night, and he also talked about calling a new beginning between US and Muslims and any world order that elevates one nation over another will fail. Saying Iran should have the right to have access to peaceful nuclear power if it complies with its responsibilities and he reiterated his support for the Palestinian state.

I played that one clip there, because all I could think of is “Quo Veritas”, you know, What Is Truth, the exchange with Jesus and Pontius Pilate. What is truth, truth in the Koran, is that the same as my truths? Dr.Andrew Bostom of Rhode Island Hospital, and author of The Legacy of Jihad and also author of Legacy of Islamic Anti-Semitism joins us now, Dr. Bostom, welcome and good morning.

Dr.Andrew Bostom: Thanks very much for having me Helen.

Helen Glover: I’m wondering, we heard the words yesterday and we can sit and parse those words and tear them apart and analyze them but, I want to know how you feel those words were viewed in the Arab/Islamic world, in the areas that he was speaking especially Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Iran. Did they look at that as maybe a weak president?

Dr.Andrew Bostom: I think unfortunately, they undermined any reformists movements that may actually exist in the Islamic world, eh,.. because what you get is just a series of bowdlerized platitudes if not outright misrepresentations of Islamic doctrine and history, eh.. past and disturbingly in our present era as well, which only reinforce the rigidity of classical Islam. I thought it was quite telling that one of the sponsors, as he in his very opening remarks, Mr. Obama talked about Al-Azhar (University) being one of the sponsors of this event. And in fact, he’s right in one sense, I mean, for over a thousand years Al-Azhar University in Cairo is really the academic shrine as much as Mecca is the religious shrine of the global Muslim community, so it’s very symbolic that he was there.

Helen Glover: Oh, that’s interesting, ok..

Dr.Andrew Bostom: It’s really the pinnacle of Islamic religious education. Um, John Roy Carlson who did a remarkable series of investigative reports, actually during WWII in this country, and he pursued Nazi, Fascist movements in this country, Bundis movements, he had gone under cover. And after the war he followed the trail overseas, and where did the trail lead him?

It lead him to Cairo, because Egypt became a major sanctuary for Nazis by the mid 1950’s under (Abdel) Nasser, but almost a decade earlier when Carlson was there in the late 40’s early 50’s, he documented not only wide spread Nazi sympathies that were in Cairo, but it was coupled to an Islamic religious fanaticism at Al-Azhar itself. He went there, he interviewed the clerics and he provided this very apt description of this tradition.

[Bostom: Carlson provided this apt description (in his book “Cairo to Damascus”) of Al Azhar’s “tradition”—“]

He says: “every year Al-Azhar graduated hundreds of missionaries who preached its fanatic doctrine throughout Asia, Africa and the islands of the Pacific.” He goes on to comment, “though Mohamed, the Muslim prophet died 632, I found out at Al-Azhar, his preachment’s were considered fresh and applicable today, with absolutely no modifications”.

And then he goes on to describe further his other meetings with the then rector of Al-Azhar University, who of course preached jihad, holy war against Zionism, and he was a friend of the jihadists and Nazi collaborating ex-Mufti of Jerusalem, and god-father of the Palestinian movement, Hajj Amin Al-Husseini who also found sanctuary in Cairo after World War II.

And the reason this is relevant and why Obama’s speech is so disturbing, is because fast forward to our era, and I read this plea from an Egyptian sociologist (Sayyed al-Qimni) a sociologist in Egypt, an Egyptian, a local, who was lamenting the fact that today, still, this was written in July of 2004, “that jihad war and the brutal subjugation of infidels under sharia Islamic law was still being taught as Al-Azhar.” He ends his plea, the Egyptian sociologist, “what kind of thing are we teaching our next generation that it has the right to attack other countries in order to convert them to Islam?” And we wonder were terror comes from?

This is an Egyptian and these are kinds of people that unfortunately that Mr.Obama in undermining when he just cites these platitudes, eh.. it’s very very disturbing

Helen Glover: You know I’m wondering there’s no stop to Israel on this trip, he’s already now at Landstuhl air force base in Germany and he’s going on to Buchenwald today, ah.. there’s no stop in Israel, he’s calling for a two state solution with Israel, where does this leave Israel? I mean it leaves them pretty much hanging out there by themselves.

Dr.Andrew Bostom: Oh absolutely, but it’s worse than that because, you know there’s, I’m really tired, as a Jew, I’m really tired of these appeals to mass, massacred Jews of past generations via the Holocaust, and these so called symbolic trips to Aushwitz to Buchenwald etc. etc.. He had the temerity in that speech to make the immoral equivalence between the Holocaust and the so called plight of the Palestinians.

Helen Glover: Yes..yes..

Dr.Andrew Bostom: This was..this was unbelievable to me, um,

Helen Glover: I mean his church supported Hamas. I mean their doctrine was printed in his church bulletin, the church of Jerimiah Wright, you know they had that so,…that doesn’t surprise me that he is..I said this during the election, I couldn’t believe that he had support from Jewish supporters in this country, when it was very evident, he didn’t hide that during the election, his support for Hamas.

Dr.Andrew Bostom: Oh absolute… listen, the fact is that Wright was a very virulent anti-Semite, he still is a very virulent anti-Semite so is (Bill) Ayers. Ah yes, this is very troubling, I don’t know what’s going on in the minds of Jewish leaders that just chose to ignore all this. But I think there in the speech, the immoral equivalence between the Holocaust and the plight of the Palestinian people…

Helen Glover: Speaks volumes….

Dr.Andrew Bostom: does speak volumes.

Helen Glover: Dr.Andrew Bostom of Rhode Island Hospital and author of The Legacy of Jihad and also author of Legacy of Islamic Anti-Semitism, thanks so much for joining us, I’d love to talk to you again on this subject because this is certainly going to have an impact for at least the immediate future, thanks so much

Dr.Andrew Bostom: Thanks for having me.

Helen Glover: You’re welcome